19 July 2011 early edition/transcript/Part 16
LOUISE MENSCH: I would like to draw you out on a question that I put to Mr James Murdoch at the end of our last session. On the wider culture of hacking, blagging and private detectives in Fleet street, to what extent did the News of the World feel justified, in its internal culture, in using those practices because everybody was doing it? I put to him that Piers Morgan—now a celebrity anchor on CNN—said openly in his book, which, clearly, was published before this controversy broke, that he had hacked phones. He said that he won scoop of the year for a story about Ulrika Jonsson and Sven-Goran Eriksson. He actually gave a tutorial in how one accesses voicemail by punching in a set default code. Clearly, from the account that he gives, he did it routinely as editor of the Daily Mirror. It was something that happened at the Daily Mirror; he was, of course, also an ex-employee of News International. We have been talking about Operation Motorman, and the different amount of use that was made of Steve Whittamore by various members of Fleet street. I went through the Information Commissioner's report and added them up. For transactions in the Daily Mail's Associated Newspapers Group, there were 1,387 transactions with Mr Whittamore, used by 98 journalists across titles and supplements in that group. Is it not obviously the case that blagging, hacking and the use of private investigators for licit and illicit purposes was an absolute culture on Fleet street, and that the News of the World participated in its illegal activities, maybe with a sense of entitlement—the same sense of entitlement that Mr Morgan shows in his book—because everybody else was doing it. Is that not the case? REBEKAH: We have heard a lot over the past 10 years, but particularly this Committee held an inquiry into Operation Motorman that was incredibly extensive. Every editor on Fleet street, I think, was called to this Committee. As far as I was concerned, the failings of all newspapers in not understanding the extent of the use of private investigators across Fleet street was held to account then. There were many changes to the Data Protection Act 1998, because of Operation Motorman. Although I accept Mr Farrelly's knowledge of The Observer—it is going to be far better than mine—they wrote a good editorial on this about three months ago, re-addressing that climate then and how different it is now. Q479 MENSCH: The Committee in 2003 concluded that there was widespread evidence of despicable practices across the media, including blagging and payments to the police. I appreciate the legal sensitivities involved in this question, but I will put it to you anyway. In your evidence to the Committee in 2003, you were asked if you had paid the police, and you clearly said, "We have paid the police in the past." May I suggest to you that the manner in which you said that implied that so do all tabloid newspapers? I am not asking you to make specific allegations, but in your general knowledge, were payments to the police widespread across Fleet street, or were they confined to News International titles? REBEKAH: If you remember, in the evidence that I gave in 2003, I was going to explain my comment. As you know, Mr Bryant asked me to explain my comment, and the session ended. In 2003, straight after my comment about payment to police, it was clarified. I think Les Hinton, who was the chairman at News International, at the 2007 inquiry clarified it again, and I clarified it recently to the Home Affairs Committee, at the end of March I think. I can say that I have never paid a policeman myself; I have never knowingly sanctioned a payment to a police officer. At the time of the recent Home Affairs Committee, there were various crime editors from Fleet street discussing that in the past payments had been made to police officers. I was referring to that wide-held belief not widespread practice. In fact, in my experience of dealing with the police, the information they give to newspapers comes free of charge. Q480 MENSCH: Mr Dacre, in evidence to a parliamentary Committee yesterday, stated that to his knowledge, the Daily Mail has never published a story based on hacking or blagging. That from a group that Operation Motorman identified made 1,387 transactions across its titles. Do you think it credible that all those 1,300-plus transactions were licitly obtained? Or is there this wider culture of hacking and blagging, of which your paper was a part? REBEKAH: I did not see Mr Dacre's evidence. You will have seen that, out of all media groups in this country, News International has been the one openly to welcome the Prime Minister's public inquiry into, I think, all Fleet street practices. We have not got the parameters yet. I am not here in a position to comment on other newspaper groups. Like I said at the beginning, things went badly wrong at the News of the World, and we are doing our best now to sort it out. I accept that it is not at the speed that the Committee would have wished and that mistakes have been made, but we are trying to put them right. On Operation Motorman, it is important that there was a Select Committee inquiry into it. It is properly right that the code of conduct of journalists and the ethics of journalism are in constant review. If there is not constant review of conduct and ethics, the freedoms that this press enjoys, which I believe in very strongly, are at risk. Q481 MENSCH: One final question: your previous letters to the Committee when you refused to attend placed great emphasis on your being willing to attend as part of a panel of newspaper editors, all of whom had been identified with Operation Motorman. In other words, you appeared to emphasise, that whatever had happened at the News of the World, it was part of this wider culture. If you seem to know or imply that these practices were going on elsewhere, how could you not be aware that they were going on endemically at the News of the World, and do you not regret that you did not yourself undertake some kind of root and branch investigation into the News of the World, rather than waiting for these things to drip out over the fullness of time? REBEKAH: Just going back to 2002-03, with all the changes to the Data Protection Act, the fact is there was a root and branch change as a result of the Select Committee inquiries and a result of the information officer's report into "What Price Privacy?" There was a fundamental change there across most newspapers and particularly, like I said, I was then editor of The Sun. I can say, absolutely, that The Sun is a very clean ship and has a great newsroom. In particular, the Operation Motorman referred to the News of the World, and The Sun was not part of it. MENSCH: Thank you.